Joёl Bellassen: I’ve Never Considered It Difficult to Learn Chinese

By He Jun, Xie Xiaoqin & Shang Dan

“Please bear with me for anything amiss.” On May 19, 69-year-old Joёl Bellassen arrived at Wuhan University of Technology to participate in the “International Symposium on the Diversified Study of Language Policy in France.” With his humble attitude and standard spoken Chinese, he won himself the warmest applause from the first minute of his speech.

In France, Joёl Bellassen is synonymous with “Chinese language.” In 1969, he started learning Chinese in the University of Paris VIII. Before he graduated, cultural exchanges between China and France resumed, which sent him to China in 1973 as one of the first French students studying in China. Over the past 40 years, he has been working on the promotion, research and teaching of the Chinese language in France. From 2006 to 2016, he held the role of the first Inspector-General of Chinese Language Teaching at the French Ministry of Education.

白樂(lè)桑：我從不認(rèn)為漢語(yǔ)難學(xué)

文/賀俊 謝小琴 商丹

A Key to Chinese Speech and Writing edited by Joёl Bellassen白樂(lè)桑主編《漢語(yǔ)語(yǔ)言文字啟蒙》

“不足之處，請(qǐng)大家多多包涵?！?月19日，年近七旬的白樂(lè)桑來(lái)到武漢理工大學(xué)，參加該校主辦的“法國(guó)語(yǔ)言政策多元研究國(guó)際學(xué)術(shù)研討會(huì)”，謙遜的態(tài)度和一口標(biāo)準(zhǔn)普通話，一開(kāi)場(chǎng)就贏得了掌聲。

白樂(lè)桑在法國(guó)幾乎是“漢語(yǔ)”的代名詞。1969年，他進(jìn)入巴黎第八大學(xué)攻讀漢語(yǔ)。畢業(yè)前，恰逢中法恢復(fù)文化交流，1973年來(lái)華留學(xué)，成為首批前往中國(guó)的法國(guó)留學(xué)生之一。此后40余年里，他一直致力于漢語(yǔ)推廣、研究與教學(xué)工作，2006年至2016年，任法國(guó)國(guó)民教育部首任漢語(yǔ)總督學(xué)。

在與我們的對(duì)話中，白樂(lè)桑道出了他的漢語(yǔ)學(xué)習(xí)理念，并對(duì)語(yǔ)言學(xué)習(xí)中的種種偏見(jiàn)提出了自己的見(jiàn)解。

曾借鑒中國(guó)的語(yǔ)文教學(xué)

記者：您被稱為法國(guó)說(shuō)漢語(yǔ)最棒的人，為什么會(huì)選擇學(xué)習(xí)漢語(yǔ)？

白樂(lè)桑：這是我被問(wèn)得最多的問(wèn)題，現(xiàn)在還有人問(wèn)。我當(dāng)時(shí)學(xué)漢語(yǔ)，是因?yàn)閯e人不學(xué)，并沒(méi)有功利的目標(biāo)。20世紀(jì)70年代，在距離中國(guó)遙遠(yuǎn)的法國(guó)和歐洲其他地方，人們很難看到漢語(yǔ)能給一個(gè)人帶來(lái)就業(yè)機(jī)會(huì)。學(xué)漢語(yǔ)應(yīng)該與我的個(gè)人性格特征相關(guān)，一是我傾向于溝通；二是我更傾向于遠(yuǎn)距離的東西，比如遠(yuǎn)距離的語(yǔ)言與文化；還有就是我一直對(duì)外語(yǔ)很感興趣。

記者：您是中法文化教育合作的推動(dòng)者和見(jiàn)證者，也是法國(guó)教育部任命的首任漢語(yǔ)總督學(xué)，漢語(yǔ)學(xué)習(xí)如今在法國(guó)是什么情況？

白樂(lè)桑：漢語(yǔ)課堂在法國(guó)本土的所有學(xué)區(qū)都有。目前，法國(guó)約有700所初高中開(kāi)設(shè)正規(guī)漢語(yǔ)課，有超過(guò)11萬(wàn)人在學(xué)習(xí)漢語(yǔ)。這11萬(wàn)人中，差不多有一半在基礎(chǔ)教育階段，這些學(xué)校把漢語(yǔ)作為正規(guī)的外語(yǔ)，不是興趣班，也不是業(yè)余愛(ài)好；法國(guó)很早就把漢語(yǔ)作為正規(guī)科目，全世界第一個(gè)出臺(tái)了綱領(lǐng)性文件，制定了漢語(yǔ)教學(xué)大綱和考試大綱。30年前，如果你跟學(xué)生家長(zhǎng)說(shuō)學(xué)漢語(yǔ)，他會(huì)說(shuō)，開(kāi)什么玩笑，現(xiàn)在他們會(huì)說(shuō)，可以考慮。

During our interview, Joёl Bellassen shared his ideas of Chinese learning and cleared up some stereotypes in the course.

We Borrowed Experiences from Language Teaching in China

—You are considered the best French Chinese speaker in France. Why did you choose to learn Chinese?

I get this question a lot; people are still asking me this. I learned Chinese back then because no one else did. I didn’t do it for an immediate utilitarian purpose. In the 1970s, France and Europe were so far away from China that people couldn’t see any employment opportunities brought about by learning Chinese. I guess it has something to do with my personality. On one hand, I’m good at communicating with others. On the other, I fancy things far away from me, such as language and culture from a remote country. I’ve always had a lot of interest in foreign languages.

—You are the promoter and witness of Sino-French cultural and educational cooperation. You were also the first Inspector-General of Chinese Language Teaching appointed by the French Ministry of Education. Can you tell us what it is like learning Chinese in France these days?

Chinese classes are available in all school districts in France. At present, there are about 700 junior and high schools in France offering regular Chinese classes, and more than 110,000 people learning Chinese, among whom half are in their primary education. These schools have Chinese as a formal foreign language class, rather than just an extracurricular activity. France long ago set Chinese as a formal subject and introduced the first programmatic document in the world, as well as the syllabus for Chinese teaching and examination. Thirty years ago, if you talked about learning Chinese with parents, they would say, “you must be kidding,” but nowadays they’ll certainly consider it.

—Would you like to tell us more about your work in formulating and revising the syllabus for Chinese learning and examination in France?

Chinese is a formal subject under the foreign languages discipline in the primary education of France. When I was editing the syllabus, I referred to experiences gained in teaching other foreign languages in France, and expanded on the overall structure and corresponding philosophy. For example, I regard Chinese culinary culture and overseas Chinese culture in France as important cultural points, so I tried to help French people learn and understand Chinese language in these fields.

I have also referred to the syllabus for Chinese teaching and examination in China, and was inspired in terms of the tradition and history. For example, I was inspired by the thousandcharacter text, whose author was a genius in my opinion, since he realized that putting characters together helps with the learning process, and came up with a wonderful method by putting as many Chinese characters as possible in the shortest possible paragraph.

記者：請(qǐng)講講您對(duì)全法漢語(yǔ)教學(xué)大綱和考試大綱的制定與修改。

白樂(lè)桑：漢語(yǔ)在法國(guó)的基礎(chǔ)教育中是一個(gè)科目，總學(xué)科叫外語(yǔ)。編寫(xiě)大綱時(shí)，我參考的是別的外語(yǔ)在法國(guó)是怎么做的，再根據(jù)總體的架構(gòu)和理念來(lái)展開(kāi)。比如，我把中國(guó)飲食文化、法國(guó)華僑文化等作為其中重要的文化點(diǎn)之一，幫助法國(guó)人學(xué)習(xí)和了解漢語(yǔ)。

我看過(guò)中國(guó)的語(yǔ)文教學(xué)和考試大綱，在傳統(tǒng)和歷史等方面受了一些啟發(fā)，也做了一些嘗試。像千字文就給了我一些啟發(fā)，這位作者想到了一個(gè)妙法，在盡可能短的篇幅里放盡可能多的漢字，我覺(jué)得他是一個(gè)天才，意識(shí)到了字的集中有助于漢語(yǔ)學(xué)習(xí)。

從不認(rèn)為漢語(yǔ)難學(xué)

記者：您覺(jué)得我們中國(guó)人在外語(yǔ)學(xué)習(xí)方面需要注意什么？

白樂(lè)桑：很多認(rèn)識(shí)誤區(qū)需要破解。我覺(jué)得一個(gè)比較流行的偏見(jiàn)是英語(yǔ)，大部分中國(guó)人把語(yǔ)言和文字混淆了，比如我受過(guò)高等教育，學(xué)過(guò)英語(yǔ)，也能簡(jiǎn)單讀讀學(xué)術(shù)性文章，但我聽(tīng)不懂美國(guó)電影，這算會(huì)英語(yǔ)嗎？

類似的誤區(qū)還有西餐，西餐其實(shí)是不存在的。比如你跟一個(gè)法國(guó)人說(shuō)你在吃西餐，他聽(tīng)不明白，這明明是法餐的里昂菜系或東南菜系。如果你說(shuō)都是西餐嘛，大同小異。他會(huì)發(fā)火：“我們跟英國(guó)人哪有共性？”沒(méi)法定義西餐，但90%的中國(guó)人堅(jiān)信有西餐，這必須糾正，因?yàn)椴焕谥袊?guó)青年了解國(guó)外。

記者：不少人覺(jué)得漢語(yǔ)難學(xué)，網(wǎng)上也經(jīng)常會(huì)有一些題目說(shuō)“連中國(guó)人都被考懵了”，您覺(jué)得呢？

白樂(lè)桑：“漢語(yǔ)難學(xué)”也是一種誤區(qū)。我走近漢語(yǔ)快半個(gè)世紀(jì)了，教學(xué)生有四十幾年了，我從不認(rèn)為漢語(yǔ)難學(xué)，也沒(méi)說(shuō)過(guò)漢語(yǔ)好學(xué)。每個(gè)科目都有難處，我沒(méi)遇到過(guò)好學(xué)的外語(yǔ)。如果你說(shuō)漢語(yǔ)有獨(dú)特之處，掌握起來(lái)比任何其他文字時(shí)間長(zhǎng)，我完全能接受。但說(shuō)漢語(yǔ)難學(xué)，好像等于說(shuō)其他科目好學(xué)。所以，不必要突出“漢語(yǔ)難學(xué)”。

現(xiàn)代化與保持傳統(tǒng)不沖突

記者：現(xiàn)在中國(guó)的一些教學(xué)改革，突出語(yǔ)文閱讀和深入理解的重要性。您怎么看？

白樂(lè)桑：加強(qiáng)閱讀當(dāng)然是好事，但是現(xiàn)在很多青年讀的都是片段，比如短信，比如一分鐘小說(shuō)等，這會(huì)產(chǎn)生思維能力的不足。培養(yǎng)思維很重要的一點(diǎn)就是讀全文，我的孫子現(xiàn)在七八歲，已經(jīng)開(kāi)始讀大仲馬的小說(shuō)全文。

記者：您說(shuō)過(guò)很懷念四五十年前的北京，那么，保持傳統(tǒng)和現(xiàn)代化有沖突嗎？

白樂(lè)桑：現(xiàn)在絕大部分中國(guó)城市，如果沒(méi)有漢字，你不知道是在中國(guó)。如果你去法國(guó)，去意大利等現(xiàn)代化國(guó)家，很多地方的歷史感和

I’ve Never Considered It Difficult to Learn Chinese

—What do you think Chinese people need to pay attention to in their foreign language learning?

There are many common misunderstandings among Chinese people, one of which is with English. The fact is, most Chinese people confuse spoken language with written language. For example, I received a higher education myself and learned English, so I can read simple academic articles, yet I can’t understand American movies—does that count as knowing English?

And then there is this misunderstanding about “Western food,” which does not exist. For example, if you tell a French person that you are having western food, they would be confused, because to him that is obviously Lyon cuisine or the southeastern cuisine in France. Now if you say that they are all Western food, similar to one another, the French guy would be angry: “We have nothing in common with the British? OK?” So there is no such definition as Western food, but 90% of Chinese people believe in the concept of Western food, which should be clarified, since it does not help Chinese youth understand foreign countries.

—Many people find it very difficult to learn Chinese. There are some test questions even many Chinese netizens consider too hard for them to work out. What do you say about that?

People say that Chinese is very difficult, but that is a misunderstanding as well. I have been working with the Chinese language for almost half a century, being a teacher for forty years, and I never considered Chinese difficult. Neither would I say that it’s easy. Every subject has its own difficulties, and I have never known a foreign language that is easy. If you say Chinese is unique in its own way and it takes longer to master it than other languages, I can accept that. When you say it is difficult to learn Chinese, it sounds like you mean it’s easy to learn other subjects. Therefore, it is just not necessary to emphasize the difficulty of Chinese.

Modernization Goes Hand in Hand with Tradition

—Nowadays we have pedagogic reforms in China highlighting the importance of reading and in-depth comprehension. What do you think of it?

Strengthening reading is of course a good thing, but nowadays what most young people read is fragmental, such as text messages, or one-minute novels, which will lead to a lack of in-depth thinking. Reading the full text is very crucial for cultivating one’s ability to think. My grandson is no more than eight years old and is already reading full books by Alexandre Dumas.

—You said that you miss the Beijing forty or fifty years ago. So, is there a conflict between tradition and modernization?

When I travel to many cities in China, I wouldn’t feel like I was in China if not for the Chinese characters I see. Yet if you go to some modern countries like France or Italy, you’ll find the touch of history and the characteristics of every place, since they are well protected and distinctive. Modernization does not necessarily conflict with the protection of traditions. We surely greet fast development, meanwhile we should also try to protect historic things.—What do you like about China? Do you have any living habits related to Chinese culture?

I like Chinese characters, square dancing, Chinese courtyards (Siheyuan), tai chi, morning exercise, Chinese chess, and the like, because they are special. I often wear Chinese traditional clothes. Interestingly Chinese people do not wear them. I think there is no such thing as advanced clothes or backward clothes.

(Translation: Lu Qiongyao)特色都保護(hù)得很好，不會(huì)讓你錯(cuò)認(rèn)?，F(xiàn)代化和保持傳統(tǒng)并不沖突，盡可能地保護(hù)有獨(dú)特風(fēng)格的東西，發(fā)展快也是可以接受的。

記者：您喜歡中國(guó)的什么，有沒(méi)有保持一些中國(guó)特色的生活習(xí)慣？

白樂(lè)桑：我喜歡中國(guó)的漢字、廣場(chǎng)舞、四合院、太極拳、晨練、圍棋等，因?yàn)橛刑厣?。我?jīng)常穿中式衣服，奇怪的是中國(guó)人反而不怎么穿。我覺(jué)得服裝沒(méi)有落后與先進(jìn)之分。