巴寧研究工作室訪談：未來(lái)的建筑？

主持：洪人杰，Kulthida Songkittipakdee / Host: Jenchieh Hung, Kulthida Songkittipakdee

對(duì)談：Tonkao Panin 泰國(guó)巴寧研究工作室主持建筑師/ Interview: Tonkao Panin; Principal Architect of Research Studio Panin, Thailand

記錄：楊清淵/ Transcript: Chingyuan Yang

洪：您作為泰國(guó)最重要的建筑教育家，同時(shí)也在泰國(guó)藝術(shù)大學(xué)（Silpakorn University）建筑學(xué)系任職全職教授，又作為Research Studio Panin主持建筑師，我很感興趣您從事建筑的原因（圖1、2）。

Hung: You are one of the most important role on architectural education in Thailand. And not only teaching at Silpakorn University, but you also be a principal architect at Research Studio Panin. I wonder why you studied architecture and the reason why you became an architect (Picture 1-2)?

Tonkao：我會(huì)讀建筑是因?yàn)槲也恢肋€有哪些其他專業(yè)。事實(shí)上，我的母親是位建筑師同時(shí)也在泰國(guó)藝術(shù)大學(xué)任教；而我的父親則是藝術(shù)家，巧合的是他們兩人都畢業(yè)于泰國(guó)藝術(shù)大學(xué)。在我幼年時(shí)期，我受到他們很深的影響，不管是藝術(shù)、設(shè)計(jì)或是相關(guān)認(rèn)知，都逐漸讓我走向建筑師這個(gè)專業(yè)。

Tonkao: I studied architecture because I do not know what else I can do. In fact, my mother is an architect,and my father is an artist, both of them were graduated from Silpakorn University. So I think I have been influenced by them, that why I became an architect.

Kulthida：您完成一系列的住宅作品，并帶著不同的地域性實(shí)驗(yàn)，您是如何將事務(wù)所的研究結(jié)合到這些住宅設(shè)計(jì)的呢？

Kulthida: Most of your projects areprivate houses,I am wondering how you canadapt yourresearches in to those programs and functions?

Tonkao：作為泰國(guó)藝術(shù)大學(xué)全職教授，我也在學(xué)校教導(dǎo)學(xué)生們進(jìn)行住宅設(shè)計(jì)與研究，而我感興趣的是“當(dāng)代住宅如何對(duì)應(yīng)氣候條件，或著說(shuō)作為建筑如何從不同地域中獲得養(yǎng)分，甚至反應(yīng)傳統(tǒng)文化”。我們從設(shè)計(jì)原型或單元型態(tài)進(jìn)行新的探討研究，并將設(shè)計(jì)作為多樣化呈現(xiàn)，重點(diǎn)是如何將地域研究結(jié)合到設(shè)計(jì)中，如：通風(fēng)遮陽(yáng)、空間配置…等。如果說(shuō)設(shè)計(jì)中有任何先天性的話，那就是我總會(huì)將底層架空，創(chuàng)造零散舒適與通風(fēng)避雨的空間（圖3）。

Tonkao: Actually, I have a lot of researchesaccording to my work at the school. It is all about development and transformation of houses, “how a contemporary house would adapt to climatic condition? Or how they would learn from vernacular, and tradition?” I have researched the design typologyof vernacular building and adaptedthe research in to my design projects. I think the way of ventilation and space configuration arethemain part of my researches. One of my intension that I always do by making all of my building plans are in shallow shape,so I can have cross ventilation in my building. (Picture 3).

洪：這些建筑項(xiàng)目是否表達(dá)了泰國(guó)性（Thai-ness），或著泰國(guó)建筑的特徵？

Hung: Can those projects represent to the Thai-ness or the identity of Thai architecture?Tonkao：我想泰國(guó)建筑在住宅設(shè)計(jì)方面與十年前或十五年前很不一樣，尤其當(dāng)您翻起現(xiàn)在的雜志，你會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)越來(lái)越多的住宅空間有一股松弛感，并試著在緊密與松弛之間創(chuàng)造流動(dòng)性。另外，我認(rèn)為泰國(guó)當(dāng)代建筑與過(guò)去十多年前最大的不同是，過(guò)去的空間總是傾向封閉、圍合的，但現(xiàn)在越來(lái)越多的建筑更開(kāi)放、自由，甚至更周圍環(huán)境有更多對(duì)話與交流，這是過(guò)去在泰國(guó)比較少見(jiàn)的（圖4）。

Tonkao: I think the identity of Thai architecture nowadays, if you look at many of the houses that are published on magazine, you can see they are not dense and not compacted like 10 to 15 years ago. There are more sense on theloosing up of space and make everything more porous; like penetrating all the spaces and letting the air can be penetrate through the spaces. I think this is one of the characteristic that you can actually see in contemporary Thai architecture, nowadays in many of the houses that you did not see 10 years ago. It is because of 10 years ago all the houses were closed off, so maybe they wereoriented internal organization in the middle of the house. I mean all the houses seem to be opened to the natural context more than 10 years ago (Picture 4).

洪：您的建筑思考與實(shí)踐方式與西方建筑師關(guān)注的很不同，譬如19世紀(jì)的建筑師勒·柯布西耶（Le Corbusier），他們?cè)谶M(jìn)行建筑設(shè)計(jì)時(shí)總是會(huì)有強(qiáng)烈的宣言與意圖。

Hung: l think the way of your design is really different with western architect in19thcentury such as Le Corbusier. The way that they built the house, they had very strong intention behind.

Tonkao：他們的理想與企圖心很強(qiáng)，認(rèn)為即便只是一個(gè)住宅也要有很強(qiáng)大的宣示，就像是柯布西耶或密斯·凡德羅（Mies van der Rohe）等建筑師。但我不認(rèn)為我需要那樣，我也不認(rèn)為住宅我所設(shè)計(jì)的建筑需要表達(dá)這個(gè)世紀(jì)的潮流或反應(yīng)某種宣言，但我認(rèn)為我像是柯布西耶或密斯那樣，完整的表達(dá)對(duì)于住宅的想像，并創(chuàng)造獨(dú)特的基地涵構(gòu)和完善業(yè)主需求（圖5、6）。

Tonkao: They have the idealistic, a notion about what kind of house would be. They have the statements,the manifesto like Le Corbusier or Mies van der Rohe, but I do not have that intention. I do not think the houses that I design is a statement or a movement of the era or anything. I do not try to solve the big problem, but I respect their thinking that they could see the totality of their works as solving some problems or answering to international questions or universal questions. However, I do not think my work can answer to universal questions because each projects answer to each clients. Especially only for that site, or that client, or that situation, or that context (Picture 5-6).

洪：如果我們談到泰國(guó)知名建筑師Duangrit Bunnag，他在1998年亞洲金融危機(jī)（Asian Financial Crises）期間開(kāi)始了他的獨(dú)立事務(wù)所Duangrit Bunnag Architect Limited（DBALP），在之后10年中他完成一系列度假酒店，并獲得無(wú)數(shù)建筑大獎(jiǎng)。我想問(wèn)的是，為何20多年過(guò)去，泰國(guó)青年建筑師依舊以度假酒店為主要項(xiàng)目來(lái)源？

Hung: If we talk about Duangrit Bunnag in 1998, he has started Duangrit Bunnag Architect Limited(DBALP) during Asian Financial Crisis, and during 10 years his office finished many resort projects.I am wondering why young generation architects are still working on this kind of project such as hotel, resort or single house project as 20 years ago.

Tonkao：酒店項(xiàng)目能讓金錢(qián)運(yùn)轉(zhuǎn)更快，因此成本與經(jīng)濟(jì)在短期就能看到成效。相反地，由于政府項(xiàng)目的預(yù)算很有限，我更期待這些項(xiàng)目在泰國(guó)能有突破與進(jìn)步，進(jìn)而促使泰國(guó)能與二十年前的城市有較大的改變?；氐骄频甑脑掝}，這些項(xiàng)目能讓建筑師從空間概念發(fā)展到具體形態(tài)，也讓泰國(guó)建筑師更喜歡與酒店業(yè)主合作，進(jìn)而在二十年中泰國(guó)酒店發(fā)展的比任何地方都好。譬如設(shè)計(jì)醫(yī)院，許多建筑師會(huì)懷疑是否能在這么大的項(xiàng)目中嘗試新的空間與形態(tài)；但相對(duì)于酒店，業(yè)主與使用者更期待看到不同空間與形態(tài)的嘗試，也讓建筑師們?cè)敢饣ǜ鄷r(shí)間在酒店設(shè)計(jì)上（圖7、8）。

Tonkao: I think these are the programs that earn more money comparing with other intuitional project. In fact, my wish is to see the government project, intuitional project to be developed further, however because of the limitation of the government, so we do not see that coming. So all those projects are happening but they appear in similar situation whichwere happened in 20 years ago. But with these resorts or houses,these programsallow architect to transform developing their ideas, so the Thai architects like to work with program that opens up more opportunities for exploring. For example, doing the hospital project, there are many architects in Thailand would hesitate to dobecause it is a complicated project and it does not allow you to explore the space and the form, so I think that why we see architect being so happy to work on a program like resort (Picture 7-8).

洪：能否談?wù)勌﹪?guó)建筑師與西方建筑師的差異性？

Hung: DoesThai architects have different approach comparing with the western architects?

Tonkao：我認(rèn)為不應(yīng)該把泰國(guó)建筑師全數(shù)放在一個(gè)籃子，因?yàn)槊總€(gè)人的實(shí)踐方式都不同。就像您之前所提到的Bangkok Project Studio主持建筑師Boonserm Premthada，他正逐漸讓建筑與社會(huì)兩者產(chǎn)生重大意義；但如果您說(shuō)我或是Jun Sekino，我們更擅長(zhǎng)處理空間議題與功能關(guān)系。如果您說(shuō)像是CHAT architects主持建筑師Chatpong Chuenrudeemol，他則在這兩個(gè)群體之間，一方面帶有刻意批判的設(shè)計(jì)元素，一方面反應(yīng)行為模式與日常生活。因此我認(rèn)為泰國(guó)建筑師有非常多樣的類型，這是與西方不同的。

Tonkao: I think it kinds of difficult to put Thai architect in one basket, because everyone is different.However, if you talk about Boonserm Premthada,he is addressing architecture very differently from other people. His architectures propose monumental as he said; it sorts of create experience rather than dealing the daily life. If you talk about other architects, like me or Jun Sekino, we are dealing with processissues and programs. If we talk about Chatpong Chuenrudeemol, he is between Boonserm Premthada and me, I think his works sometime are very highly rhetorical, but at the same time he deals with sort of the habit and people life. So I think Thai architects have many different categories, and itis very different with western countries.

圖1、2，北柳府知識(shí)文化中心/ Knowledge Center of Chachoengsao（攝影/ Photo：Spaceshift Studio）

圖3、4，DN住宅╱House DN（攝影╱Photo：Beer Singnoi）

洪：事實(shí)上這也是我的問(wèn)題，當(dāng)您看著新加坡建筑師，就會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)他們不彰顯風(fēng)格，但建筑物卻看起來(lái)非常的新加坡。但回到泰國(guó)，如您所言泰國(guó)建筑師非常多樣化，我們無(wú)法找到一個(gè)共通性或是相同類別，但結(jié)果怎會(huì)導(dǎo)向誰(shuí)喜歡Boonserm Premthada的設(shè)計(jì)風(fēng)格，誰(shuí)則喜歡Chatpong Chuenrudeemol的設(shè)計(jì)風(fēng)格。

Hung: This is also one of my question, like when you look at Singaporean architects, you can feel the architects do notneed to talk about their styles, but each building lookslike the same and it is only specific in Singapore. But as you mentioned, Thai architects are very diverse, so we cannot categorize them. And the result is only who like Boonserm Premthada’swork or Chatpong Chuenrudeemol’s work, etc.

Tonkao：我想新加坡也具備著多樣性，但新加坡建筑師會(huì)有更多的共通性是在于他們的面積受限，也會(huì)讓實(shí)踐導(dǎo)向同質(zhì)化。相比泰國(guó)，我們的土地面積比新加坡大很多，同時(shí)我們也存在著比新加坡更不同的環(huán)境關(guān)系需要建筑師去面對(duì)，因此這是回復(fù)您所問(wèn)的，為何泰國(guó)建筑師的多樣性如此巨大，因?yàn)槲覀兯鎸?duì)的環(huán)境差異性比新加坡建筑師更多。此外像是Boonserm Premthada所設(shè)計(jì)的羅勇府班昌市政廳（Baan Chang Town Hall）和素輦府大象王國(guó)（Elephant World），他所處理的環(huán)境問(wèn)題非常獨(dú)特，也導(dǎo)致他能做出特別的回應(yīng)與設(shè)計(jì)。我認(rèn)為我們所面臨的問(wèn)題很不同，也讓我們不僅思考功能問(wèn)題，更要解決環(huán)境議題等因素。

Tonkao: I think Singapore has sort of the certain thing which is not national stylistic of representation,but many Singaporean architects have more commonality because of their limited size of land and the homogenization of practice. Compared to Thailand, our space is much larger than Singaporeand we have so many different kind of context and architect need to deal with it. That why the diversity of Thai architects is so obvious.For example, Boonserm Premthada designed theBaan Chang Town Hall andElephant World.He deals with very unique situation which of course it would never be existed in Singapore. But once, if he designs a project such as a house in the middle of Bangkok, he willcompletely deal with different kind of question, which allowshim to have different types and different kinds of answer to these questionsat the same time. It is not only each architect is different, but even the same architect who deals with the question quite differently, also has different answer because of the diversity of context.

Kulthida：這個(gè)問(wèn)題讓我想到食物，如果我們想吃新加坡食物，會(huì)想到的永遠(yuǎn)是那一兩種… 但是泰國(guó)食物，則有太多種選擇，更別說(shuō)還有無(wú)數(shù)種的調(diào)味料。

Kulthida: Actually this question reminded me about the food. If we want to try the Singapore food,we may just know one or two dishes. But for Thai food, there are many kinds.

Tonkao：事實(shí)上我與教授才在晚餐中所聊到，他說(shuō)泰式料理很不同，每道菜都有很復(fù)雜的香辛料，而且能在同一時(shí)間感覺(jué)到又甜又辣。從料理這件事情便能反應(yīng)泰國(guó)人的特色，我們并沒(méi)有一個(gè)完整的圖像，或許傳統(tǒng)建筑有，但在現(xiàn)實(shí)城市如曼谷、清邁、普吉甚至還有些偏遠(yuǎn)地區(qū)，這些城市逐漸發(fā)展的更完整，趨向完整但又異質(zhì)的涵構(gòu)性。這樣的多樣性與復(fù)雜性從地區(qū)發(fā)展而來(lái)，舉個(gè)例子像景觀事務(wù)所Shma所設(shè)計(jì)的森林之宅（Forested House），這個(gè)項(xiàng)目最近被刊登在泰國(guó)《Design Something》頭條。這個(gè)住宅在非常有限的土地中占滿整個(gè)地塊，但建筑上方卻有滿滿的樹(shù)，同時(shí)若留意到周圍環(huán)境，會(huì)發(fā)現(xiàn)差異性非常大，因?yàn)橐贿吺堑桶≌?，但另一邊則是高層酒店公寓。在這個(gè)案例中，可以看到即便是一個(gè)住宅，也面對(duì)著相當(dāng)戲劇性的環(huán)境關(guān)系；因此不僅是泰國(guó)建筑師類型多樣，即便是相同建筑案，建筑設(shè)計(jì)也具備多種回復(fù)，而這正是泰國(guó)當(dāng)代建筑的最大特色。

Tonkao: In fact, this is one thing that I discussedin my dinnerwith Professor David Leatherbarrow who came to have a public lecture in Bangkok. He said Thai food is very different to many other food because the food is so complex and contradictory at the same time. Some dishes are very sweet and some dishes are sweet and spicy. I think it is same with everything, for Thai people,wedo not have any idealistic image of one thing, but I know if we talk about tradition Thai house about 100 years ago, of course you would have one image. But nowadays, we have different character of city such as Bangkok, Chiangmai, Phuket and we have several rural areas. And I think everything have grown into a completely different way, itbecomes a completely different context. This diversity and complexity come from that. For example,Forested House designedby one of principal landscape architect from Shma, it just featured in design mediacalled Design Something. This house hasvery limited piece of land. He grew a lot of trees in whole piece of land. At the same time if you look at the photo, the context around his house is completely different, one side is a low house with a lot of tree and another side is sort of the apartment building. So within one house we have to deal with different types of context. It is not only the several architects, sometime in the same project, you need to answer diverse of questions. Therefore, this is the characteristic of Thai contemporary architecture.

Kulthida：能否分享泰國(guó)當(dāng)代建筑正走向哪個(gè)方向？

Kulthida: Do you think which directionThai contemporary architecture is going?

Tonkao：我期待的是看到建筑師更專注于文化層面，并非將建筑執(zhí)業(yè)視為一個(gè)狹隘的領(lǐng)域，更要全面與完善。我們需要更集中精神讓建筑置入后能連動(dòng)相關(guān)事物，不只是經(jīng)濟(jì)層面，還包括政治、社會(huì)、文化等議題。我想泰國(guó)建筑之所以讓人期待，是因?yàn)樗泻芏嗖豢深A(yù)期的可能性，可以更好甚至可以回應(yīng)更多問(wèn)題。目前，泰國(guó)建筑師的視野相對(duì)集中于獨(dú)立實(shí)踐，并沒(méi)有與太多層面發(fā)生關(guān)系；相較于中國(guó)，我相信在那邊的建筑真實(shí)地回應(yīng)社會(huì)與文化議題。我們有更多的期待看到泰國(guó)當(dāng)代建筑中的建筑師以及青年實(shí)踐者，不僅在社會(huì)實(shí)踐上做出貢獻(xiàn)，另外也需要不斷質(zhì)疑項(xiàng)目本身是否與社會(huì)發(fā)生關(guān)系，這將會(huì)引導(dǎo)泰國(guó)建筑走向?qū)Φ奈磥?lái)（圖9）。

Tonkao: I think what I want to see that architect needs to be a lot more concern with culture in general. It is not only to see the architecture as an object finishing by itself. But we need to be concern about how this project is going to be situate in relation to other thing that are happening; not only the economic but also the political and a lot other social cultural issues that are changing in Thailand. For nowadays Thai architects see architecture as autonomous discipline not so much related to other things. I think architecture discipline in China is a lot more related to culture and social issues, much more than the architecture in Thailand.That is what I want to see, of course there are some people who are doing the social work, but I think every single architects and every young architects in Thailand need to ask the relationship between their projects and social issues that they are going on at the time (Picture 9).

圖5、6，BT住宅╱House BT（攝影╱Photo：Spaceshift Studio）

圖7、8，PRY1度假酒店/ PRY1（攝影/ Photo：Spaceshift Studio）

圖9 加拉信醫(yī)院/ Kalasin Thonburi Hospital（攝影/Photo：Research Studio Panin）