論玩興
——弗蘭克·蓋里訪談

張利/ZHANG Li

路培 譯/Translated by LU Pei

論玩興
——弗蘭克·蓋里訪談

On Playfulness: Interview with Frank Gehry

張利/ZHANG Li

路培 譯/Translated by LU Pei

1.2 巴黎路易威登基金會外景/Exterior views of Foundation Louis Vuitton （攝影/Photos: Iwan Baan ?Iwan Baan 2014 ? Gehry partners LLP）

2015年6月20日-8月9日，“弗蘭克·蓋里巴黎路易威登基金會建筑展覽”在北京舉辦。展覽聚焦在弗蘭克·蓋里所設(shè)計(jì)建造的巴黎路易威登基金會，追溯了整個基金會設(shè)計(jì)的始終，從初始的設(shè)計(jì)草圖到最終建筑的成型，匯集了整個建筑項(xiàng)目進(jìn)程中所制作的各種建筑模型，呈現(xiàn)出該建筑設(shè)計(jì)過程中各個不同方面的研究。以該展覽為契機(jī)，在路易威登基金會的幫助下，本刊對因故未能來京的弗蘭克·蓋里進(jìn)行了簡短的訪談。

1 關(guān)于巴黎路易威登基金會及其展覽

張利：與您的其他項(xiàng)目相比，巴黎路易斯威登基金會的設(shè)計(jì)過程有什么與眾不同之處？如果有，它與之前的項(xiàng)目區(qū)別何在？有什么聯(lián)系或進(jìn)一步發(fā)展？

蓋里：我在每一個項(xiàng)目上的設(shè)計(jì)過程都是一樣的。不同在于，每個項(xiàng)目的甲方不一樣，需求和看待問題的視角也各不相同。盡管過程相似，結(jié)果卻大相徑庭。

張利：您最喜歡這個建筑的哪個部分？對您來說，

最大的挑戰(zhàn)是什么？

蓋里：項(xiàng)目的甲方阿爾諾先生對這個建筑非常滿意，參觀者也喜歡它，這是令我最為滿意的一點(diǎn)。這也是整個項(xiàng)目中最為重要的一點(diǎn)，同時(shí)也是最大的挑戰(zhàn)所在！

張利：您對這次展覽作何評價(jià)？它是否完美地展現(xiàn)了您的設(shè)計(jì)過程？展覽中是否有獨(dú)特的地方可以讓您從不同的視角看待這個項(xiàng)目？

蓋里：這個展覽完美地展現(xiàn)了設(shè)計(jì)的過程。通過展覽，人們可以了解到，我們在塑造這個建筑之前，對項(xiàng)目功能給予了充分的考慮。在這之后，我們對建筑的表達(dá)形式進(jìn)行了探索，嘗試了非常多的想法，并最終找到了正確的那一個。

2 關(guān)于建筑理念

張利：您的作品被認(rèn)為是我們這個時(shí)代最令人愉快的建筑。所以，或許我們可以聊聊“愉快”這個話題。對于一些人，愉快是獲得的一種感受；對于另外一些人，愉快是自娛的行為。您對此怎么看？建筑本身可以是一種樂趣嗎？

蓋里：我熱愛做建筑，熱衷設(shè)計(jì)一些大家都喜歡去的場所。我認(rèn)為有一點(diǎn)很重要，就是要時(shí)常記得建筑是為人而建的，空間應(yīng)讓人感覺舒服且令人振奮。而這早已不被重視。對人的關(guān)注，是我們在設(shè)計(jì)建筑或體驗(yàn)建筑的時(shí)候最為關(guān)鍵的因素。

張利：審美體驗(yàn)帶給人的愉悅與商品消費(fèi)帶給人的愉悅總是難以區(qū)分，就連眾多時(shí)髦的現(xiàn)代美術(shù)館也難以逃脫這一令人尷尬的判斷。您如何區(qū)分深入心靈的建筑與面向市場的建筑？

蓋里：我相信好的設(shè)計(jì)并非只是昂貴的設(shè)計(jì)?，F(xiàn)如今，很多人以此為借口不做好設(shè)計(jì)。我們目前正在做的許多公益項(xiàng)目，建設(shè)造價(jià)都不高，空間的體驗(yàn)卻都很棒。

張利：“少”還是“多”，這似乎是一個永恒的論題。曾身處于一個“少”盛行的年代，您當(dāng)初卻為何選擇了“多”？與您的同輩人相比，您認(rèn)為是否贏得了這場與極簡主義者的斗爭？在過度設(shè)計(jì)與手法主義橫行的今天，我們在設(shè)計(jì)上使用的加法是否已太多？

蓋里：每個人都應(yīng)該以他認(rèn)為舒服的方式去工作。建筑是包容的，而非排他的。每一種風(fēng)格或類型的建筑都應(yīng)有它的容身之地?，F(xiàn)如今，總有一些人希望建筑師彼此競爭，可事實(shí)并非如此。我對持各種風(fēng)格的建筑師都尊重有加。無論你自己是哪種風(fēng)格，我要求你對你所采用的技藝的各個方面都要了如指掌；無論項(xiàng)目規(guī)模有多小，你都要竭盡所能拿出最好的設(shè)計(jì)；無論設(shè)計(jì)什么，你都要尊重客戶的時(shí)間安排和預(yù)算，尊重設(shè)計(jì)作品未來的使用者。

張利：建筑師，尤其著名的建筑師，通常自我意識比較強(qiáng)，以致于會嚴(yán)重地傷及他們的幽默感。您是一個例外，為什么？您是如何在建筑與生活中保持幽默感的？

蓋里：我熱愛我所做的。當(dāng)你熱愛你所做的事情時(shí)，你會希望人們有參與感并且快樂?！?/p>

3-7 北京“弗蘭克·蓋里巴黎路易威登基金會建筑展覽”現(xiàn)場/ Exhibition in Beijing

8 展覽設(shè)計(jì)中的草圖/Sketch in the exhibition（3-8 圖片版權(quán)/ Copyright: 路易威登基金會/Foundation Louis Vuitton）

1 About Foundation Louis Vuitton Building in Paris and the Exhibition

ZHANG Li: Is it a different process comparing with other projects, if yes, what's the difference and the connections or evolutions?

Frank Gehry: My process is the same for every project. The difference is that each project has a different client and a different set of needs and a different perspective. The process for each project is similar but the outcomes are very different.

ZHANG Li: What is your favorite part in this building? What is the big challenge for you?

Frank Gehry: My favorite part is that the client M. Arnault is very happy with it and the visitors like it too. That is the most important part and also the biggest challenge!

ZHANG Li: What are your comments for the exhibition? Is it reflecting your design process perfectly? Is there anything special in this exhibition that gives you a different view on this project?

Frank Gehry: The exhibition shows the process very well. It shows how we pay very close attention to the program before we shape the building. And then when we explore the architectural expression of the project, we try many many different ideas before we find the right one.

2 About Frank Gehry's general architecture philosophy

ZHANG Li: Your architecture has been regarded as the most pleasurable of our time. So it might be reasonable to bring in the subject of pleasure. To some, pleasure is something that one receives. To others, pleasure is something that one practices. What is your take on this? Can architecture be a pleasure?

Frank Gehry: I love to make architecture and I love to make places that people like to go to. I think it is important to always remember that architecture is for people and that spaces should feel good and uplifting to people. This is something that has gotten lost. Humanity is the most important thing to focus on when making or experiencing architecture.

ZHANG Li: There is always a blurry distinction between the delight of aesthetic experience and the delight of commodity consuming. Even the posh modern museums cannot evade this embarrassment. How would you define the difference between architecture that speaks to the mind and architecture that speaks to the market?

Frank Gehry: I don't believe that good design is only expensive design. Far too many people use this as an excuse not to make a good design. We are working on many pro-bono projects that are not expensive to build but the experience of the space will be great.

ZHANG Li: Should it be more or should it be less, this seems to be a question that is going debated forever. Why did you select "more" at a time that was still very much about "less" ? Do you think you have, with some contemporaries, won the war against reductivists? Given the spread of over-design and mannerism in architecture today, are we having too much?

Frank Gehry: Everyone has to work in the manner that they feel comfortable with. Architecture is inclusive, not exclusive. There is room for every style and every type of architecture. Far too many people want to pit architects against each other, which just isn't the case. I greatly respect architects of all different styles. Whatever your style is, I urge you to understand every aspect of your craft; do your best work no matter how small it is; and design everything with respect for your client's schedule and budget and for the people who will use it.

ZHANG Li: Architects, particularly worldrenowned architects, tend to have enlarged egos that significantly compromise their sense of humor. You are an exception. Why is it? How did you maintain your sense of humor, both in architecture and in life?

Frank Gehry: I love what I do. When you love what you do, you want people to feel included and happy.□

清華大學(xué)建筑學(xué)院/《世界建筑》

2015-08-22